(Fwd) Re: Personal messages for all?/"...it's your problem"

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#1 Fri, 1998-11-13 19:25
Keef
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(Fwd) Re: Personal messages for all?/"...it's your problem"

Forwarded message: From: Self To: Michael Wilderman jazzvisions@KREATIVE.NET Subject: Re: Personal messages for all?/"...it's your problem" Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:11:37 -0500

Date sent: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:24:33 -0500 From: Michael Wilderman jazzvisions@KREATIVE.NET Subject: Re: Personal messages for all?/"...it's your problem"

Keef,

You don't seem to get it. The list philosophy which you defend is NOT the philosophy of this list. You can establish another list and enjoy yourself. Joe tried to explain the situation very politely, and we concur.

I'm not so sure that there's such a thing as a "philosophy of this list." The list is a static forum. A room of people talking if you will. It's the room -- the place where we have gathered. If an argument starts in a room you don't stand in one place in the room and proclaim that the person you disagree with somehow violated the room's earthly space, or go on about how they're taking too much of the airwidth in the room. You either debate or change the subject. So if you disagree with someone, debate them ... point/counterpoint. If you don't want to engage in that, change the subject. But you can't point fingers at someone and say their behaviour is off, or that they've compromised the integrity of the space they're occupying.

Off topic is one thing, as are accidental personal posts. But, you are engaging in personal posts with disdain for the interests of the list members. There are reasonable guidelines and limits that have long been in practice, and you are exceeding them in annoying fashion.

In your opinion maybe, which I will always maintain is Your Problem and Not Mine. I have no disdain for anyone, and cannot exceed guidelines and limits that are not defined.

I find it amazing that I have to explain my actions to get the point across, but I was simply engaging in a debate, which is good for one's brain.

The overall question being debated was not whether Phish is a good group or not -- it was whether you should simply dismiss anyone at all on the basis of whether you like them, with Phish as the example, because that's who Justin dismissed. If it were Mariah Carey, I'd have said the same things I was saying. Justin did just that, I said, no you can't do that, and we were off.

Consider how many years we've all weathered that attitude towards Sunny. I'm sure we've all heard "what's that weird sound you're listening to?" at one point or another, so I'd say as a philosophical debate, this is the perfect forum for such a question. I can't think of anyone in the whole of jazz who has more trouble living their art down than Sunny did, except for maybe Ornette Coleman. I'm trying to find out why someone who loves the music of someone who lived with that sort of disdain all of his life would dismiss anyone's music at all. It may help me with my own impatience towards people when they ask me what that strange noise I'm listening to is, and it turns out to be Atlantis or Strange Strings.

When you start talking about philosophical things, there's bound to be heat (and fallout as I described happened on the Miles list and is happening here), and I don't know about you but I enjoy it; I always learn something. It's a part of communication. If you can't deal with it you may as well be a hermit. From this exchange right here I learned that your telling me that I'm engaging in personal posts with disdain for the interests of the list members is very reflexive behaviour, and that I probably shouldn't do such a thing myself. Were I not a party to this particular debate, I would have simply ignored it if I did not find it interesting.

Sun Ra's universality does not mean that anything in the universe is a fair topic. Please try making constructive and relevant posts, if you wish to stay on the list.

I've been doing nothing other than that. My posts are constructive and relevant in that they debate. I can't engage in counterpoint without a point first, and at no time have I started a topic. Your reaction to what I write as I said before is Your Problem And No One Else's. If no one was interested in debating me, no one would have given me the opportunity after I said, no you can't dismiss musicians like that. You want to define what the guidelines are? Be my guest, but you should probably be prepared for an even more intense debate. I don't think anyone wants this list to be reduced to people reminiscing what the Arkestra was before 1993, seeing countless advertisements for shows that we'll never make it to because we're too far away geographically, and a lot of discographical haggling.

Space, Keef