Saturn site/list changes

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#1 Wed, 2012-08-08 16:34
Steven M Scotten
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Saturn site/list changes

(sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't always appear in email" issue.)

I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up for debate.


The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the forum with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address with these proposed changes.

Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more stable, useful, and usable.

I appreciate any comments or suggestions.


Steve
-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow

Wed, 2012-08-08 21:31
Gary Lawrence Murphy
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Saturn site/list changes

I'm ok with however you want to take this, but I did want to say that email is not "old school" -- email works, plain and simple.  the interface for email is robust, well understood, open international standards based, the tools are mature and the api is trivial: people can use whatever software they wish to access and respond. Email is ubiquitous, works the same on any network interface device you can name.  Email is no more 'old school' than big band jazz, it is simply what you make of it, given the simple rules of the game.


on the other hand, webby-things are non-standard, they require resources to run, learning curves to handle, and each of them seems to go by their own rules for formating, or even for what button goes where and does what, and anything can change with one simple revision.  there are no rules, no standards, only loose communities of conventions that come and go with the wind.  Cello, for example, is old-school.  Web things also escalate the costs mostly because the tools are not mature and the formats are not standards based, and because the developers can't stay with a good thing, they can't resist adding this, changing that, in an endless pattern.  the primary webserver in the world is called Apache not to honour native americans, but because it has been patched so many times, very little of the original remains.

so I cringe when I hear plans to shift to a web platform for any purpose, and I'm one of the people who pioneered the web back in '91, served on the Internet Society's ISTF with Vint Cerf and have written major web applications including the portal for a national ISP and international news services that currently deliver a big chunk of the sports data seen on countless web, cellphone and television displays.  So I'm no curmudgeon by any stretch, although I do know a thing or two about computer interfaces, and email has a great interface.


All that said, from the subscriber's point of view, there may not be much visible difference; subscribe and unsubscribe is a task we do only once, and archives are accessed by web interfaces anyway, so while I'd continue to interact with the list using my old familiar email pages, as a computing professional, I will always harbour a tiny little fear that someday the webby-thing underneath the list will slip a disk in the jdbc or corrupt an index in the mysql or any one of a thousand little catastrophes that go wrong in the chaos of umpteen apps strung together to make it work, and if we're all really lucky, none of that will ever actually happen ;)

ps. I would have answered on the forum, but I'd forgotten my login credentials.  I've ordered fresh ones, but answered here while I was waiting just to prove a point ;)


On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Steve Scotten <steve@smscotten.com> wrote:

(sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't always appear in email" issue.)

I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up for debate.



The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the forum with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address with these proposed changes.

Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more stable, useful, and usable.

I appreciate any comments or suggestions.



Steve
-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow


_______________________________________________

Saturn mailing list

Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info

http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options




--

Have Blog, Will Travel: blog.teledyn.com
A Serviceable Substitute: post.teledyn.com


Wed, 2012-08-08 22:36 (Reply to #2)
Steve Scotten
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Saturn site/list changes

I'd like to be clear that I have no intent on eliminating email as a way to interface with the Saturn discussion. Ideally we'd simply be able to reply to an incoming email in order to post just like always. But if the email and the web forum are both run by the same software, keeping that working will be much easier. 

There are some trade-offs, but I'm not at all trying to eliminate email. Everything Gary wrote is true. At the same time, there are some good reasons to have a robust Web version: the ability to effectively search, for example—both for current list members and for new people looking for Sun Ra information.

As far as calling email "old school," I apologize if that caused offense. I meant email discussion lists, as opposed to other kinds of discussion forums. Or fora. Whatever. Email remains a simple and direct form of communication and I personally wish that more websites took lessons from the way that email works.

I'm going to give this a lot more thought before I commit to any plan of action, and I'd very much appreciate any suggestions.


Steve

-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:

I'm ok with however you want to take this, but I did want to say that email is not "old school" -- email works, plain and simple.  the interface for email is robust, well understood, open international standards based, the tools are mature and the api is trivial: people can use whatever software they wish to access and respond. Email is ubiquitous, works the same on any network interface device you can name.  Email is no more 'old school' than big band jazz, it is simply what you make of it, given the simple rules of the game.

on the other hand, webby-things are non-standard, they require resources to run, learning curves to handle, and each of them seems to go by their own rules for formating, or even for what button goes where and does what, and anything can change with one simple revision.  there are no rules, no standards, only loose communities of conventions that come and go with the wind.  Cello, for example, is old-school.  Web things also escalate the costs mostly because the tools are not mature and the formats are not standards based, and because the developers can't stay with a good thing, they can't resist adding this, changing that, in an endless pattern.  the primary webserver in the world is called Apache not to honour native americans, but because it has been patched so many times, very little of the original remains.

so I cringe when I hear plans to shift to a web platform for any purpose, and I'm one of the people who pioneered the web back in '91, served on the Internet Society's ISTF with Vint Cerf and have written major web applications including the portal for a national ISP and international news services that currently deliver a big chunk of the sports data seen on countless web, cellphone and television displays.  So I'm no curmudgeon by any stretch, although I do know a thing or two about computer interfaces, and email has a great interface.


All that said, from the subscriber's point of view, there may not be much visible difference; subscribe and unsubscribe is a task we do only once, and archives are accessed by web interfaces anyway, so while I'd continue to interact with the list using my old familiar email pages, as a computing professional, I will always harbour a tiny little fear that someday the webby-thing underneath the list will slip a disk in the jdbc or corrupt an index in the mysql or any one of a thousand little catastrophes that go wrong in the chaos of umpteen apps strung together to make it work, and if we're all really lucky, none of that will ever actually happen ;)

ps. I would have answered on the forum, but I'd forgotten my login credentials.  I've ordered fresh ones, but answered here while I was waiting just to prove a point ;)

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Steve Scotten <steve@smscotten.com> wrote:

(sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't always appear in email" issue.)

I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up for debate.



The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the forum with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address with these proposed changes.

Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more stable, useful, and usable.

I appreciate any comments or suggestions.



Steve
-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow


_______________________________________________

Saturn mailing list

Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info

http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options




--

Have Blog, Will Travel: blog.teledyn.com
A Serviceable Substitute: post.teledyn.com


_______________________________________________
Saturn mailing list
http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options


Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #3)
3equals0-3equals1
3equals0-3equals1's picture
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Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-09 18:35

Saturn site/list changes

It's hard to know how to respond to issues like this.  I'm a casual user of very small mind when it comes to the sub underground of the web. 

I'd like to continue to access the list via email (I rarely log into the forum).  I'd also like to have the ability to effectively search the archives and feel comfortable in the belief that the list is relatively impervious to the ravages of progress.  If that means updating the software used to keep this place intact and Scott is willing to continue to host and maintain it, then by all means, please lets make it friendlier / less expensive for Scott / more secure / easier to transition to whatever might be coming up next. 


I'll happily defer to Scott's opinion of how the bits and bytes are organized.  Meni Many Amens to Scott for striving to keep us together.

-john



On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Steve Scotten <steve@scotten.net> wrote:
I'd like to be clear that I have no intent on eliminating email as a way to interface with the Saturn discussion. Ideally we'd simply be able to reply to an incoming email in order to post just like always. But if the email and the web forum are both run by the same software, keeping that working will be much easier. 

There are some trade-offs, but I'm not at all trying to eliminate email. Everything Gary wrote is true. At the same time, there are some good reasons to have a robust Web version: the ability to effectively search, for example—both for current list members and for new people looking for Sun Ra information.

As far as calling email "old school," I apologize if that caused offense. I meant email discussion lists, as opposed to other kinds of discussion forums. Or fora. Whatever. Email remains a simple and direct form of communication and I personally wish that more websites took lessons from the way that email works.

I'm going to give this a lot more thought before I commit to any plan of action, and I'd very much appreciate any suggestions.



Steve


-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:

I'm ok with however you want to take this, but I did want to say that email is not "old school" -- email works, plain and simple.  the interface for email is robust, well understood, open international standards based, the tools are mature and the api is trivial: people can use whatever software they wish to access and respond. Email is ubiquitous, works the same on any network interface device you can name.  Email is no more 'old school' than big band jazz, it is simply what you make of it, given the simple rules of the game.


on the other hand, webby-things are non-standard, they require resources to run, learning curves to handle, and each of them seems to go by their own rules for formating, or even for what button goes where and does what, and anything can change with one simple revision.  there are no rules, no standards, only loose communities of conventions that come and go with the wind.  Cello, for example, is old-school.  Web things also escalate the costs mostly because the tools are not mature and the formats are not standards based, and because the developers can't stay with a good thing, they can't resist adding this, changing that, in an endless pattern.  the primary webserver in the world is called Apache not to honour native americans, but because it has been patched so many times, very little of the original remains.

so I cringe when I hear plans to shift to a web platform for any purpose, and I'm one of the people who pioneered the web back in '91, served on the Internet Society's ISTF with Vint Cerf and have written major web applications including the portal for a national ISP and international news services that currently deliver a big chunk of the sports data seen on countless web, cellphone and television displays.  So I'm no curmudgeon by any stretch, although I do know a thing or two about computer interfaces, and email has a great interface.


All that said, from the subscriber's point of view, there may not be much visible difference; subscribe and unsubscribe is a task we do only once, and archives are accessed by web interfaces anyway, so while I'd continue to interact with the list using my old familiar email pages, as a computing professional, I will always harbour a tiny little fear that someday the webby-thing underneath the list will slip a disk in the jdbc or corrupt an index in the mysql or any one of a thousand little catastrophes that go wrong in the chaos of umpteen apps strung together to make it work, and if we're all really lucky, none of that will ever actually happen ;)


ps. I would have answered on the forum, but I'd forgotten my login credentials.  I've ordered fresh ones, but answered here while I was waiting just to prove a point ;)

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Steve Scotten <steve@smscotten.com> wrote:

(sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't always appear in email" issue.)

I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up for debate.


The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the forum with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address with these proposed changes.

Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more stable, useful, and usable.

I appreciate any comments or suggestions.



Steve
-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow


_______________________________________________

Saturn mailing list

Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info

http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options




--

Have Blog, Will Travel: blog.teledyn.com
A Serviceable Substitute: post.teledyn.com


_______________________________________________
Saturn mailing list
http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options



_______________________________________________

Saturn mailing list

Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info

http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options




--
3 = 0, 3 = 1, don'tcha know

Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #4)
3equals0-3equals1
3equals0-3equals1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-09 18:35

Saturn site/list changes

Sorry Steve - Scott is my middle name so I guess I zeroed in on (part
of) your last name!!

On 8/9/12, John Sudduth wrote:
> It's hard to know how to respond to issues like this. I'm a casual user of
> very small mind when it comes to the sub underground of the web.
>
> I'd like to continue to access the list via email (I rarely log into the
> forum). I'd also like to have the ability to effectively search the
> archives and feel comfortable in the belief that the list is relatively
> impervious to the ravages of progress. If that means updating the software
> used to keep this place intact and Scott is willing to continue to host and
> maintain it, then by all means, please lets make it friendlier / less
> expensive for Scott / more secure / easier to transition to whatever might
> be coming up next.
>
> I'll happily defer to Scott's opinion of how the bits and bytes are
> organized. Meni Many Amens to Scott for striving to keep us together.
>
> -john
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Steve Scotten wrote:
>
>> I'd like to be clear that I have no intent on eliminating email as a way
>> to interface with the Saturn discussion. Ideally we'd simply be able to
>> reply to an incoming email in order to post just like always. But if the
>> email and the web forum are both run by the same software, keeping that
>> working will be much easier.
>>
>> There are some trade-offs, but I'm not at all trying to eliminate email.
>> Everything Gary wrote is true. At the same time, there are some good
>> reasons to have a robust Web version: the ability to effectively search,
>> for example—both for current list members and for new people looking for
>> Sun Ra information.
>>
>> As far as calling email "old school," I apologize if that caused offense.
>> I meant email discussion lists, as opposed to other kinds of discussion
>> forums. Or fora. Whatever. Email remains a simple and direct form of
>> communication and I personally wish that more websites took lessons from
>> the way that email works.
>>
>> I'm going to give this a lot more thought before I commit to any plan of
>> action, and I'd very much appreciate any suggestions.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> --
>> Steve Scotten
>> Sent with Sparrow
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
>>
>> I'm ok with however you want to take this, but I did want to say that
>> email is not "old school" -- email works, plain and simple. the
>> interface
>> for email is robust, well understood, open international standards based,
>> the tools are mature and the api is trivial: people can use whatever
>> software they wish to access and respond. Email is ubiquitous, works the
>> same on any network interface device you can name. Email is no more 'old
>> school' than big band jazz, it is simply what you make of it, given the
>> simple rules of the game.
>>
>> on the other hand, webby-things are non-standard, they require resources
>> to run, learning curves to handle, and each of them seems to go by their
>> own rules for formating, or even for what button goes where and does
>> what,
>> and anything can change with one simple revision. there are no rules, no
>> standards, only loose communities of conventions that come and go with
>> the
>> wind. Cello, for example, is old-school. Web things also escalate the
>> costs mostly because the tools are not mature and the formats are not
>> standards based, and because the developers can't stay with a good thing,
>> they can't resist adding this, changing that, in an endless pattern. the
>> primary webserver in the world is called Apache not to honour native
>> americans, but because it has been patched so many times, very little of
>> the original remains.
>>
>> so I cringe when I hear plans to shift to a web platform for any purpose,
>> and I'm one of the people who pioneered the web back in '91, served on
>> the
>> Internet Society's ISTF with Vint Cerf and have written major web
>> applications including the portal for a national ISP and international
>> news
>> services that currently deliver a big chunk of the sports data seen on
>> countless web, cellphone and television displays. So I'm no curmudgeon
>> by
>> any stretch, although I do know a thing or two about computer interfaces,
>> and email has a great interface.
>>
>> All that said, from the subscriber's point of view, there may not be much
>> visible difference; subscribe and unsubscribe is a task we do only once,
>> and archives are accessed by web interfaces anyway, so while I'd continue
>> to interact with the list using my old familiar email pages, as a
>> computing
>> professional, I will always harbour a tiny little fear that someday the
>> webby-thing underneath the list will slip a disk in the jdbc or corrupt
>> an
>> index in the mysql or any one of a thousand little catastrophes that go
>> wrong in the chaos of umpteen apps strung together to make it work, and
>> if
>> we're all really lucky, none of that will ever actually happen ;)
>>
>> ps. I would have answered on the forum, but I'd forgotten my login
>> credentials. I've ordered fresh ones, but answered here while I was
>> waiting just to prove a point ;)
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Steve Scotten
>> wrote:
>>
>> (sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't
>> always appear in email" issue.)
>>
>> I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn
>> discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up for
>> debate.
>>
>> Please see: http://outerspaceways.info/forum/saturn/43209
>>
>> The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the
>> forum
>> with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address with these
>> proposed changes.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion
>> group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the
>> issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more stable,
>> useful, and usable.
>>
>> I appreciate any comments or suggestions.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>> --
>> Steve Scotten
>> Sent with Sparrow
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Saturn mailing list
>> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
>> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Have Blog, Will Travel: blog.teledyn.com*
>> *A Serviceable Substitute: post.teledyn.com*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Saturn mailing list
>> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
>> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Saturn mailing list
>> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
>> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 3 = 0, 3 = 1, don'tcha know
>

Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #5)
Steven M Scotten
Steven M Scotten's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-01 17:25

Saturn site/list changes

On Thursday, August 9, 2012 at 11:14 AM, John Sudduth wrote:

Sorry Steve - Scott is my middle name so I guess I zeroed in on (part
of) your last name!!

No problem, John. I've been getting that all my life. I even had a friend named Scott call me Scott once. Just don't call me late for dinner. :-)


Steve
-- 
Steve Scotten


See my blog at http://splicer.com/

Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #6)
◦ tobias c. van...
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: 2012-08-09 19:41

Saturn site/list changes

hi Saturnites & Steve,

First, big thanks to Steve for maintaining the server! It's a thankless task. Dealing with these backend issue can be a real timesuck. Plus cold hard cash. So a huge THANKS to Steve.

OK, I'd certainly prefer email. I archive emails, save them, and go back to them offline. I can't archive a forum nor browse it offline.

Though I participate in both forums & email lists, I find email lists better for facilitating discussion. Forums have a different kind of flow, which is fun for what it is, but an email list tends to be more informative. Especially this one. There aren't too many emails from Saturn, the level of civility is amazing, and people generally only post when they have something good to share.

If I had to visit a forum, I'd probably end up missing out. Information is fragmented into threads. The total picture can be difficult to follow. Email lists are robust. A subscription list isn't dated at all in this respect — it anticipates what is called PUSH technology. Forums are passive. Email notifications from forums are generally messy.

There are of course advantages to forums: archiving threads online allows for discussions over longer periods of time; and one can post images, embedded video, and so on. On email we just post links. So I get why many people might like and use the forum.

So, as an admin, I'd keep the email list and worry less about trying to merge these two different platforms. If there are dedicated forum users, deploy both. Let people use what they want. It's easy enough to maintain. There won't be a unified whole to the Spaceways, but perhaps the first question should be: must there be?

Of note, many of the older, more established online communities I follow (Nettime, etc) still operate via email. The emails are all archived online and accessible to subscribers with search functionality (easy setting in Mailman, etc).

best,

tobias
_______________________________________________
Saturn mailing list
Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options

Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #7)
◦ tobias c. van...
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: 2012-08-09 19:41

Saturn site/list changes

hi Saturnites & Steve,

First, big thanks to Steve for maintaining the server! It's a thankless task. Dealing with these backend issue can be a real timesuck. Plus cold hard cash. So a huge THANKS to Steve.

OK, I'd certainly prefer email. I archive emails, save them, and go back to them offline. I can't archive a forum nor browse it offline.

Though I participate in both forums & email lists, I find email lists better for facilitating discussion. Forums have a different kind of flow, which is fun for what it is, but an email list tends to be more informative. Especially this one. There aren't too many emails from Saturn, the level of civility is amazing, and people generally only post when they have something good to share.

If I had to visit a forum, I'd probably end up missing out. Information is fragmented into threads. The total picture can be difficult to follow. Email lists are robust. A subscription list isn't dated at all in this respect — it anticipates what is called PUSH technology. Forums are passive. Email notifications from forums are generally messy.

There are of course advantages to forums: archiving threads online allows for discussions over longer periods of time; and one can post images, embedded video, and so on. On email we just post links. So I get why many people might like and use the forum.

So, as an admin, I'd keep the email list and worry less about trying to merge these two different platforms. If there are dedicated forum users, deploy both. Let people use what they want. It's easy enough to maintain. There won't be a unified whole to the Spaceways, but perhaps the first question should be: must there be?

Of note, many of the older, more established online communities I follow (Nettime, etc) still operate via email. The emails are all archived online and accessible to subscribers with search functionality (easy setting in Mailman, etc).

best,

tobias
_______________________________________________
Saturn mailing list
Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options

Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #8)
Sam Byrd
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-09 18:59

Saturn site/list changes: prefer but defer

I too prefer the email format but will defer to whatever works best for
you and in the interest of perpetuating the community. With much
appreciation for all the work, effort, and expense you have expended for
our benefit so far, and Saturnally,
Sam

On 8/9/2012 12:58 AM, Steve Scotten wrote:
> I'd like to be clear that I have no intent on eliminating email as a way
> to interface with the Saturn discussion. Ideally we'd simply be able to
> reply to an incoming email in order to post just like always. But if the
> email and the web forum are both run by the same software, keeping that
> working will be much easier.
>
> There are some trade-offs, but I'm not at all trying to eliminate email.
> Everything Gary wrote is true. At the same time, there are some good
> reasons to have a robust Web version: the ability to effectively search,
> for example—both for current list members and for new people looking for
> Sun Ra information.
>
> As far as calling email "old school," I apologize if that caused
> offense. I meant email discussion lists, as opposed to other kinds of
> discussion forums. Or fora. Whatever. Email remains a simple and direct
> form of communication and I personally wish that more websites took
> lessons from the way that email works.
>
> I'm going to give this a lot more thought before I commit to any plan of
> action, and I'd very much appreciate any suggestions.
>
>
> Steve
>
> --
> Steve Scotten
> Sent with Sparrow
>
> On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
>
>> I'm ok with however you want to take this, but I did want to say that
>> email is not "old school" -- email works, plain and simple. the
>> interface for email is robust, well understood, open international
>> standards based, the tools are mature and the api is trivial: people
>> can use whatever software they wish to access and respond. Email is
>> ubiquitous, works the same on any network interface device you can
>> name. Email is no more 'old school' than big band jazz, it is simply
>> what you make of it, given the simple rules of the game.
>>
>> on the other hand, webby-things are non-standard, they require
>> resources to run, learning curves to handle, and each of them seems to
>> go by their own rules for formating, or even for what button goes
>> where and does what, and anything can change with one simple revision.
>> there are no rules, no standards, only loose communities of
>> conventions that come and go with the wind. Cello, for example, is
>> old-school. Web things also escalate the costs mostly because the
>> tools are not mature and the formats are not standards based, and
>> because the developers can't stay with a good thing, they can't resist
>> adding this, changing that, in an endless pattern. the primary
>> webserver in the world is called Apache not to honour native
>> americans, but because it has been patched so many times, very little
>> of the original remains.
>>
>> so I cringe when I hear plans to shift to a web platform for any
>> purpose, and I'm one of the people who pioneered the web back in '91,
>> served on the Internet Society's ISTF with Vint Cerf and have written
>> major web applications including the portal for a national ISP and
>> international news services that currently deliver a big chunk of the
>> sports data seen on countless web, cellphone and television displays.
>> So I'm no curmudgeon by any stretch, although I do know a thing or
>> two about computer interfaces, and email has a great interface.
>>
>> All that said, from the subscriber's point of view, there may not be
>> much visible difference; subscribe and unsubscribe is a task we do
>> only once, and archives are accessed by web interfaces anyway, so
>> while I'd continue to interact with the list using my old familiar
>> email pages, as a computing professional, I will always harbour a tiny
>> little fear that someday the webby-thing underneath the list will slip
>> a disk in the jdbc or corrupt an index in the mysql or any one of a
>> thousand little catastrophes that go wrong in the chaos of umpteen
>> apps strung together to make it work, and if we're all really lucky,
>> none of that will ever actually happen ;)
>>
>> ps. I would have answered on the forum, but I'd forgotten my login
>> credentials. I've ordered fresh ones, but answered here while I was
>> waiting just to prove a point ;)
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Steve Scotten >> > wrote:
>>> (sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't
>>> always appear in email" issue.)
>>>
>>> I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn
>>> discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up
>>> for debate.
>>>
>>> Please see: http://outerspaceways.info/forum/saturn/43209
>>>
>>> The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the
>>> forum with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address
>>> with these proposed changes.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion
>>> group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the
>>> issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more
>>> stable, useful, and usable.
>>>
>>> I appreciate any comments or suggestions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> --
>>> Steve Scotten
>>> Sent with Sparrow
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Saturn mailing list
>>> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
>>>
>>> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> /Have Blog, Will Travel: blog.teledyn.com /
>> /A Serviceable Substitute: post.teledyn.com /
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Saturn mailing list
>> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
>> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Saturn mailing list
> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
>
_______________________________________________
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Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41 (Reply to #9)
Stuart Boyer
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Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-22 23:50

Saturn site/list changes




Thanks Steve , I love e-mail and I'm glad it's not going away too soon.

Stuart ( Non - facebook user )



 



Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 21:58:46 -0700
From: steve@scotten.net
To: saturn@outerspaceways.info
Subject: Re: [ Saturn ] Saturn site/list changes

I'd like to be clear that I have no intent on eliminating email as a way to interface with the Saturn discussion. Ideally we'd simply be able to reply to an incoming email in order to post just like always. But if the email and the web forum are both run by the same software, keeping that working will be much easier. 

There are some trade-offs, but I'm not at all trying to eliminate email. Everything Gary wrote is true. At the same time, there are some good reasons to have a robust Web version: the ability to effectively search, for example—both for current list members and for new people looking for Sun Ra information.

As far as calling email "old school," I apologize if that caused offense. I meant email discussion lists, as opposed to other kinds of discussion forums. Or fora. Whatever. Email remains a simple and direct form of communication and I personally wish that more websites took lessons from the way that email works.

I'm going to give this a lot more thought before I commit to any plan of action, and I'd very much appreciate any suggestions.


Steve

-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:

I'm ok with however you want to take this, but I did want to say that email is not "old school" -- email works, plain and simple.  the interface for email is robust, well understood, open international standards based, the tools are mature and the api is trivial: people can use whatever software they wish to access and respond. Email is ubiquitous, works the same on any network interface device you can name.  Email is no more 'old school' than big band jazz, it is simply what you make of it, given the simple rules of the game.

on the other hand, webby-things are non-standard, they require resources to run, learning curves to handle, and each of them seems to go by their own rules for formating, or even for what button goes where and does what, and anything can change with one simple revision.  there are no rules, no standards, only loose communities of conventions that come and go with the wind.  Cello, for example, is old-school.  Web things also escalate the costs mostly because the tools are not mature and the formats are not standards based, and because the developers can't stay with a good thing, they can't resist adding this, changing that, in an endless pattern.  the primary webserver in the world is called Apache not to honour native americans, but because it has been patched so many times, very little of the original remains.

so I cringe when I hear plans to shift to a web platform for any purpose, and I'm one of the people who pioneered the web back in '91, served on the Internet Society's ISTF with Vint Cerf and have written major web applications including the portal for a national ISP and international news services that currently deliver a big chunk of the sports data seen on countless web, cellphone and television displays.  So I'm no curmudgeon by any stretch, although I do know a thing or two about computer interfaces, and email has a great interface.


All that said, from the subscriber's point of view, there may not be much visible difference; subscribe and unsubscribe is a task we do only once, and archives are accessed by web interfaces anyway, so while I'd continue to interact with the list using my old familiar email pages, as a computing professional, I will always harbour a tiny little fear that someday the webby-thing underneath the list will slip a disk in the jdbc or corrupt an index in the mysql or any one of a thousand little catastrophes that go wrong in the chaos of umpteen apps strung together to make it work, and if we're all really lucky, none of that will ever actually happen ;)


ps. I would have answered on the forum, but I'd forgotten my login credentials.  I've ordered fresh ones, but answered here while I was waiting just to prove a point ;)

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Steve Scotten <steve@smscotten.com> wrote:

(sigh… even I seem to have been hit by the "post on site doesn't always appear in email" issue.)

I'm considering some necessary changes to the way that the Saturn discussion works. Some change is necessary. What path is taken is up for debate.



The fact that I still haven't ironed out all the issues bridging the forum with the mailing list is one of the things I'd like to address with these proposed changes.

Anyway, I'm not going to pull the rug out or shut down the discussion group. But I'd like some feedback as to how I can go about fixing the issues and making the system (however it ends up) generally more stable, useful, and usable.

I appreciate any comments or suggestions.



Steve
-- 
Steve Scotten
Sent with Sparrow


_______________________________________________

Saturn mailing list

Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info

http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options




--

Have Blog, Will Travel: blog.teledyn.com
A Serviceable Substitute: post.teledyn.com


_______________________________________________
Saturn mailing list
http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options



_______________________________________________
Saturn mailing list
Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options


Thu, 2012-08-09 19:41
ihorsr
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Joined: 2010-12-14 08:05

Saturn site/list changes

i prefer the email option myself - being able to send emails and have
them appear in the forum, and to receive forum / email posts as a
digest..

I-) ihor
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Fri, 2012-08-10 07:05
Neal Neal Bo Beal
Neal Neal Bo Beal's picture
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Joined: 2010-12-22 23:45

Saturn site/list changes

I only use the website, as I hate getting too much email. The only drawback is when people who reply via email is when they quote the entire previous email in their message (which often includes every message before that). This makes browsing for information on the website difficult, and often, I don't bother reading something that might be interesting because it gets lost.

 

Not so bad when you get emails, because your reply will show up at the top. But take one look at this webpage and you'll see how it can be frustrating.

 

Most times, people just do it out of habit (hit reply, type and send). But unless you are intending to highlight a passage of text, then take the extra second and press select all, delete, and then type.

 

This can't really be enforced, it would mostly be a courtesy for those who only use the website, or for anyone trying to search the archive for information.

"Your brain is simply wired to a nostalgic sense of audio distortion. You hear warmth, you think you hear grandeur, space, subtlety, all these things . . . but actually you're just satisfying an old recording in your brain." -Daniel Richler on vinyl.

Fri, 2012-08-10 19:46 (Reply to #12)
rodman lewis
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Joined: 2011-11-30 12:04

Saturn site/list changes

On 10/08/12 15:05, fhqwhgads@shaw.ca wrote:
> I only use the website, as I hate getting too much email. The only
> drawback
> is when people who reply via email is when they quote the entire previous
> email in their message (which often includes every message before
> that). This
> makes browsing for information on the website difficult, and often, I
> don't
> bother reading something that might be interesting because it gets lost.
=================================
I agree. I always edit the original message before replying and put a
line under it to indicate that I'm replying. Perhaps members should
learn the art of editing? I also bottom post because it makes it easier
for others to look at previous messages to understand what the
discussion is about. Should we have a "bottom posting" rule?

Julian Vein
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Fri, 2012-08-10 19:46 (Reply to #13)
Michael Wilderman 4
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Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: 2010-12-22 23:45

Saturn site/list changes






Hi all,

 

My two cents - I only use the emails, so Ihope that
would be maintained.  Editing is desirable, but requiring bottom posting is
too much regulation to ask for.  It's easy enough to scroll down to see the
previous message(s) - which hopefully have been reduced or edited.

 

Michael

---
Jazz Visions Photo/Graphics
href="http://www.wildermanphoto.com">www.wildermanphoto.com
href="http://www.jazzvisionsphotos.com">www.jazzvisionsphotos.com

 

 

style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">From:
href="mailto:julianvein@blueyonder.co.uk">Julian Vein
To: href="mailto:saturn@outerspaceways.info">saturn@outerspaceways.info

Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:00
AM

Subject: Re: [ Saturn ] Saturn site/list
changes


On 10/08/12 15:05, href="mailto:fhqwhgads@shaw.ca">fhqwhgads@shaw.ca wrote:
> I only
use the website, as I hate getting too much email. The only
>
drawback
> is when people who reply via email is when they quote the
entire previous
> email in their message (which often includes every
message before
> that). This
> makes browsing for information on
the website difficult, and often, I
> don't
> bother reading
something that might be interesting because it gets
lost.
=================================
I agree. I always edit the
original message before replying and put a
line under it to indicate that
I'm replying. Perhaps members should
learn the art of editing? I also
bottom post because it makes it easier
for others to look at previous
messages to understand what the
discussion is about. Should we have a
"bottom posting" rule?

      Julian
Vein



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7373 (20120810) __________



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com

 

jazzvisionsphotos.com

Sun, 2012-08-12 19:39
Neal Neal Bo Beal
Neal Neal Bo Beal's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-22 23:45

Saturn site/list changes

>It's easy enough to scroll down to see the
>previous message(s) - which hopefully have been reduced or edited.

 

Oh the irony (see above)

"Your brain is simply wired to a nostalgic sense of audio distortion. You hear warmth, you think you hear grandeur, space, subtlety, all these things . . . but actually you're just satisfying an old recording in your brain." -Daniel Richler on vinyl.