Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

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#1 Thu, 2012-03-08 12:32
Robert L. Campbell
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Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

I never did get Michael Anderson's 14-CD compilation from Transparency, so I bought a copy.  Should have done this a while back...

The Good Doctor has added considerably to the early Sun Ra discography, and I have just started working his manifold revelations into the RSRF page on Sun Ra in Chicago, http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html.

So far I've worked on the Arkestral material (from disks 12 through 14 in the set).  Here are a few thoughts.

Disk 12:

7.  "I'm Coming Home" (Billie Hawkins, Heartbeat H3)
8.  "Last Call for Love" (Billie Hawkins, Heartbeat H4)

It's great to have these Billie Hawkins sides on a reissue collection at last.  I have to respectfully disagree, however, with the suggestion that these were cut at the February 1956 Arkestra session for Saturn.  

The RCA Victor matrix numbers for the two Heartbeat sides come from earlier in the G7OB/G7OW series than the matrix numbers for the first Arkestral sides (see "Velvet," below).  Also, there are two trumpets on the Hawkins sides but not on the February 1956 session.

The rehearsal tape of Hawkins with the Arkestra (tracks 2-5, from January 12, 1956, also with two trumpets) is quite a bonus.

We now have confirmation (from a promotional copy of H3/H4 that went to a Cincinnati radio station owner, accompanied by a handwritten note from Seymour Schwartz) that this was the first release on Heartbeat.  (There would be one more in 1956, then Seymour put the company on hold till 1958, when he started recording his "Heartbeat Trumpet.")

Michael Anderson refers to "Ms. Hawkins" and in his note Seymour says "she."  When I interviewed Seymour, however, he said that Billie Hawkins was male.

11. "Big City Blues"
12. "Delilah"
13. "Velvet"

These live tracks can't be from Budland, or from March 18, 1956, as stated in the Transparency notes.  The front line is Phil Cohran, Marshall Allen, and John Gilmore, and Ronnie Boykins is obviously the bassist.  The Good Doctor has all four of these musicians on the date (though he also puts James Spaulding on it).

They're from 1960 (less likely, 1961).  Highest-probability venue is the Wonder Inn...  

Damn good performances, regardless.  John's solo on this edition of "Velvet" has now joined my Top 500 :)

19-22.  "Velvet" (4 takes, 1 complete)

The Good Doctor says May 27, 1956 for these takes from an Arkestral studio session.  But the engineer announces "G7OB 5261" during take 1.  This is a matrix number from the February 1956 session at RCA Studios.  The previously known matrix numbers are G7OW 5257 through 5261 (with the OW because all were released, or intended for release, on 45s, not 78s).  And Wilburn Green's electric bass can be heard on this version of "Velvet."

At least one track got released with the wrong matrix number ("Urnack" is identified on the Saturn single as G7OW 5261), but bigger discrepancies have happened.

I suspect there's one more early Saturn single out there, with "Demon's Lullaby" on one side.  We know Alton Abraham ordered a 45-rpm test pressing of "Snomed Yballul"...  Maybe with "Velvet" on the other side?

Robert Campbell


Robert L Campbell
Professor, Psychology
Editor, New Ideas in Psychology
Webmaster, Red Saunders Research Foundation
campber@clemson.edu
http://www.robertlcampbell.com
http://www.redsaunders.com


Sat, 2012-03-10 18:21
Christopher Trent
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Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1 - Sun Ra and Colema

There's another line of investigation we've been pursuing, triggered
by some music included in the Transparency box set "The Eternal Myth
Revealed Vol 1."

Michael Anderson suggests in his commentary and notes that Sun Ra was
involved with the sessions which Coleman Hawkins made for the Parrot
label in Chicago in 1953. Michael does not specify Sun Ra's
contributions e - he chiefly suggests Sunny was the arranger for the
sessions.

I began listening carefully to all the twelve sides recorded at these
Parrot sessions, and was suddenly startled to realise that on the six
quartet pieces I was listening to Sun Ra on piano!

These six pieces were clearly recorded at a separate session from the
sextet tracks with organ, guitar and vocalists. On the quartet tracks
the piano is way out of tune (it isn't on the sextet tracks) and the
quartet recording session sounds like a very basic afffair (one
microphone?) in an empty club, rather than a studio recording.

After a lot of relistening to the quartet tracks, and the sextet
tracks with organ and piano, I still believe that Sun Ra is definitely
playing on the quartet tracks. Robert Campbell agrees.

So thanks to Michael Anderson, we now know of a recording of Sun Ra
with Coleman Hawkins from 1953. There were always stories of a 1948
Hawkins - Ra recording, but that has not yet turned up. Instead, we
all seem to have overlooked this 1953 recording, which has been out
there on an album on a major jazz label ever since 1955. In fact I
think that makes it Sun Ra's first appearance on LP.

The tracks which definitely have Sun Ra on piano are:
Flight Eleven
Modern Fantasy
Confessin'
September Song
You Can't Take That Away From Me
Should I?

They were never issued by the Parrot label, but were sold on to Savoy,
who released them as side B of "The Hawk Returns", Savoy MG12013. Side
A of this LP has the other (sextet) Parrot tracks, to which Sun Ra may
have contributed as arranger, but on which I don't hear strong
evidence of his piano playing.

The Chronological Classics CD "Coleman Hawkins 1953-1954" has all
twelve of these tracks. Most of them are also included on the Savoy CD
"Confessin' - The Astounding Coleman Hawkins."

All we currently know about these Parrot sessions is now included on
Robert's Sun Ra discographcal page:
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html

I hope there are yet more surprises to be found in the Transparency
box set.

Chris
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Sat, 2012-03-10 18:22 (Reply to #2)
Sam Byrd
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Joined: 2010-12-09 18:59

Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1 - Sun Ra and Colema

Excellent!

For those of you with access to Spotify, they have the Savoy CD
"Confessin' - The Astounding Coleman Hawkins."

Sam

On 3/8/2012 4:48 PM, Christopher Trent wrote:
> There's another line of investigation we've been pursuing, triggered by
> some music included in the Transparency box set "The Eternal Myth
> Revealed Vol 1."
>
> Michael Anderson suggests in his commentary and notes that Sun Ra was
> involved with the sessions which Coleman Hawkins made for the Parrot
> label in Chicago in 1953. Michael does not specify Sun Ra's
> contributions e - he chiefly suggests Sunny was the arranger for the
> sessions.
>
> I began listening carefully to all the twelve sides recorded at these
> Parrot sessions, and was suddenly startled to realise that on the six
> quartet pieces I was listening to Sun Ra on piano!
>
> These six pieces were clearly recorded at a separate session from the
> sextet tracks with organ, guitar and vocalists. On the quartet tracks
> the piano is way out of tune (it isn't on the sextet tracks) and the
> quartet recording session sounds like a very basic afffair (one
> microphone?) in an empty club, rather than a studio recording.
>
> After a lot of relistening to the quartet tracks, and the sextet tracks
> with organ and piano, I still believe that Sun Ra is definitely playing
> on the quartet tracks. Robert Campbell agrees.
>
> So thanks to Michael Anderson, we now know of a recording of Sun Ra with
> Coleman Hawkins from 1953. There were always stories of a 1948 Hawkins -
> Ra recording, but that has not yet turned up. Instead, we all seem to
> have overlooked this 1953 recording, which has been out there on an
> album on a major jazz label ever since 1955. In fact I think that makes
> it Sun Ra's first appearance on LP.
>
> The tracks which definitely have Sun Ra on piano are:
> Flight Eleven
> Modern Fantasy
> Confessin'
> September Song
> You Can't Take That Away From Me
> Should I?
>
> They were never issued by the Parrot label, but were sold on to Savoy,
> who released them as side B of "The Hawk Returns", Savoy MG12013. Side A
> of this LP has the other (sextet) Parrot tracks, to which Sun Ra may
> have contributed as arranger, but on which I don't hear strong evidence
> of his piano playing.
>
> The Chronological Classics CD "Coleman Hawkins 1953-1954" has all twelve
> of these tracks. Most of them are also included on the Savoy CD
> "Confessin' - The Astounding Coleman Hawkins."
>
> All we currently know about these Parrot sessions is now included on
> Robert's Sun Ra discographcal page:
> http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html
>
> I hope there are yet more surprises to be found in the Transparency box
> set.
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Saturn mailing list
> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options
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Tue, 2012-03-13 13:06 (Reply to #3)
rodman lewis
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Last seen: 3 years 5 months ago
Joined: 2011-11-30 12:04

Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1 - Sun Ra and Colema

On 08/03/12 21:48, Christopher Trent wrote:
> There's another line of investigation we've been pursuing, triggered
> by some music included in the Transparency box set "The Eternal Myth
> Revealed Vol 1."
>
> Michael Anderson suggests in his commentary and notes that Sun Ra was
> involved with the sessions which Coleman Hawkins made for the Parrot
> label in Chicago in 1953. Michael does not specify Sun Ra's
> contributions e - he chiefly suggests Sunny was the arranger for the
> sessions.
>
> I began listening carefully to all the twelve sides recorded at these
> Parrot sessions, and was suddenly startled to realise that on the six
> quartet pieces I was listening to Sun Ra on piano!
>
> These six pieces were clearly recorded at a separate session from the
> sextet tracks with organ, guitar and vocalists. On the quartet tracks
> the piano is way out of tune (it isn't on the sextet tracks) and the
> quartet recording session sounds like a very basic afffair (one
> microphone?) in an empty club, rather than a studio recording.
>
> After a lot of relistening to the quartet tracks, and the sextet
> tracks with organ and piano, I still believe that Sun Ra is definitely
> playing on the quartet tracks. Robert Campbell agrees.
>
> So thanks to Michael Anderson, we now know of a recording of Sun Ra
> with Coleman Hawkins from 1953. There were always stories of a 1948
> Hawkins - Ra recording, but that has not yet turned up. Instead, we
> all seem to have overlooked this 1953 recording, which has been out
> there on an album on a major jazz label ever since 1955. In fact I
> think that makes it Sun Ra's first appearance on LP.
>
> The tracks which definitely have Sun Ra on piano are:
> Flight Eleven
> Modern Fantasy
> Confessin'
> September Song
> You Can't Take That Away From Me
> Should I?
>
> They were never issued by the Parrot label, but were sold on to Savoy,
> who released them as side B of "The Hawk Returns", Savoy MG12013. Side
> A of this LP has the other (sextet) Parrot tracks, to which Sun Ra may
> have contributed as arranger, but on which I don't hear strong
> evidence of his piano playing.
>
> The Chronological Classics CD "Coleman Hawkins 1953-1954" has all
> twelve of these tracks. Most of them are also included on the Savoy CD
> "Confessin' - The Astounding Coleman Hawkins."
>
============================
Those above titles plus "Last Stop" have also been reissued on Savoy
double LP SJL 2220 ("The Tenor Sax Album").

Julian Vein
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Sat, 2012-03-10 18:21
Sam Byrd
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Last seen: 6 years 10 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-09 18:59

Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

Thanks for your insight on this. I am still absorbing the contents of
this box; there's certainly a lot there to absorb! Looking forward to
your comments on the other discs.....

Sam

On 3/8/2012 3:31 PM, Robert L Campbell wrote:
> I never did get Michael Anderson's 14-CD compilation from Transparency,
> so I bought a copy. Should have done this a while back...
>
> The Good Doctor has added considerably to the early Sun Ra discography,
> and I have just started working his manifold revelations into the RSRF
> page on Sun Ra in Chicago, http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html.
>
> So far I've worked on the Arkestral material (from disks 12 through 14
> in the set). Here are a few thoughts.
>
> Disk 12:
>
> 7. "I'm Coming Home" (Billie Hawkins, Heartbeat H3)
> 8. "Last Call for Love" (Billie Hawkins, Heartbeat H4)
>
> It's great to have these Billie Hawkins sides on a reissue collection at
> last. I have to respectfully disagree, however, with the suggestion that
> these were cut at the February 1956 Arkestra session for Saturn.
>
> The RCA Victor matrix numbers for the two Heartbeat sides come from
> earlier in the G7OB/G7OW series than the matrix numbers for the first
> Arkestral sides (see "Velvet," below). Also, there are two trumpets on
> the Hawkins sides but not on the February 1956 session.
>
> The rehearsal tape of Hawkins with the Arkestra (tracks 2-5, from
> January 12, 1956, also with two trumpets) is quite a bonus.
>
> We now have confirmation (from a promotional copy of H3/H4 that went to
> a Cincinnati radio station owner, accompanied by a handwritten note from
> Seymour Schwartz) that this was the first release on Heartbeat. (There
> would be one more in 1956, then Seymour put the company on hold till
> 1958, when he started recording his "Heartbeat Trumpet.")
>
> Michael Anderson refers to "Ms. Hawkins" and in his note Seymour says
> "she." When I interviewed Seymour, however, he said that Billie Hawkins
> was male.
>
> 11. "Big City Blues"
> 12. "Delilah"
> 13. "Velvet"
>
> These live tracks can't be from Budland, or from March 18, 1956, as
> stated in the Transparency notes. The front line is Phil Cohran,
> Marshall Allen, and John Gilmore, and Ronnie Boykins is obviously the
> bassist. The Good Doctor has all four of these musicians on the date
> (though he also puts James Spaulding on it).
>
> They're from 1960 (less likely, 1961). Highest-probability venue is the
> Wonder Inn...
>
> Damn good performances, regardless. John's solo on this edition of
> "Velvet" has now joined my Top 500 :)
>
> 19-22. "Velvet" (4 takes, 1 complete)
>
> The Good Doctor says May 27, 1956 for these takes from an Arkestral
> studio session. But the engineer announces "G7OB 5261" during take 1.
> This is a matrix number from the February 1956 session at RCA Studios.
> The previously known matrix numbers are G7OW 5257 through 5261 (with the
> OW because all were released, or intended for release, on 45s, not 78s).
> And Wilburn Green's electric bass can be heard on this version of "Velvet."
>
> At least one track got released with the wrong matrix number ("Urnack"
> is identified on the Saturn single as G7OW 5261), but bigger
> discrepancies have happened.
>
> I suspect there's one more early Saturn single out there, with "Demon's
> Lullaby" on one side. We know Alton Abraham ordered a 45-rpm test
> pressing of "Snomed Yballul"... Maybe with "Velvet" on the other side?
>
> Robert Campbell
>
> Robert L Campbell
> Professor, Psychology
> Editor, New Ideas in Psychology
> Webmaster, Red Saunders Research Foundation
> campber@clemson.edu
> http://www.robertlcampbell.com
> http://www.redsaunders.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Saturn mailing list
> Saturn@lists.outerspaceways.info
> http://outerspaceways.info/ for subscribe and unsubscribe options

Sat, 2012-03-10 18:21
3equals0-3equals1
3equals0-3equals1's picture
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Last seen: 3 years 11 months ago
Joined: 2010-12-09 18:35

Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

Thank you,  RLC & CT for sharing your observations. 



The Transparency set is so large that it's a bit overwhelming to try and
take it all in.  I'm happy to have your insights into some select
tracks and I'm looking forward to listening again to these and the Parrot tracks
while reviewing your notes.



-john


On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Robert L Campbell <campber@clemson.edu> wrote:

I never did get Michael Anderson's 14-CD compilation from Transparency, so I bought a copy.  Should have done this a while back...

The Good Doctor has added considerably to the early Sun Ra discography, and I have just started working his manifold revelations into the RSRF page on Sun Ra in Chicago, http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html.

So far I've worked on the Arkestral material (from disks 12 through 14 in the set).  Here are a few thoughts.

Disk 12:

7.  "I'm Coming Home" (Billie Hawkins, Heartbeat H3)
8.  "Last Call for Love" (Billie Hawkins, Heartbeat H4)

It's great to have these Billie Hawkins sides on a reissue collection at last.  I have to respectfully disagree, however, with the suggestion that these were cut at the February 1956 Arkestra session for Saturn.  

The RCA Victor matrix numbers for the two Heartbeat sides come from earlier in the G7OB/G7OW series than the matrix numbers for the first Arkestral sides (see "Velvet," below).  Also, there are two trumpets on the Hawkins sides but not on the February 1956 session.

The rehearsal tape of Hawkins with the Arkestra (tracks 2-5, from January 12, 1956, also with two trumpets) is quite a bonus.

We now have confirmation (from a promotional copy of H3/H4 that went to a Cincinnati radio station owner, accompanied by a handwritten note from Seymour Schwartz) that this was the first release on Heartbeat.  (There would be one more in 1956, then Seymour put the company on hold till 1958, when he started recording his "Heartbeat Trumpet.")

Michael Anderson refers to "Ms. Hawkins" and in his note Seymour says "she."  When I interviewed Seymour, however, he said that Billie Hawkins was male.

11. "Big City Blues"
12. "Delilah"
13. "Velvet"

These live tracks can't be from Budland, or from March 18, 1956, as stated in the Transparency notes.  The front line is Phil Cohran, Marshall Allen, and John Gilmore, and Ronnie Boykins is obviously the bassist.  The Good Doctor has all four of these musicians on the date (though he also puts James Spaulding on it).

They're from 1960 (less likely, 1961).  Highest-probability venue is the Wonder Inn...  

Damn good performances, regardless.  John's solo on this edition of "Velvet" has now joined my Top 500 :)

19-22.  "Velvet" (4 takes, 1 complete)

The Good Doctor says May 27, 1956 for these takes from an Arkestral studio session.  But the engineer announces "G7OB 5261" during take 1.  This is a matrix number from the February 1956 session at RCA Studios.  The previously known matrix numbers are G7OW 5257 through 5261 (with the OW because all were released, or intended for release, on 45s, not 78s).  And Wilburn Green's electric bass can be heard on this version of "Velvet."

At least one track got released with the wrong matrix number ("Urnack" is identified on the Saturn single as G7OW 5261), but bigger discrepancies have happened.

I suspect there's one more early Saturn single out there, with "Demon's Lullaby" on one side.  We know Alton Abraham ordered a 45-rpm test pressing of "Snomed Yballul"...  Maybe with "Velvet" on the other side?

Robert Campbell


Robert L Campbell

Professor, Psychology
Editor, New Ideas in Psychology
Webmaster, Red Saunders Research Foundation
campber@clemson.edu
http://www.robertlcampbell.com

http://www.redsaunders.com



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Thu, 2012-06-07 19:43
Brad at Saturn
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Joined: 2010-12-29 15:08

Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

I especially like the Solovox rehearsal material,especially "Darn that Dream"

Music a Neglected Plane of Wisdom

Mon, 2012-06-11 14:46 (Reply to #7)
SunRadio
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Joined: 2010-12-15 08:50

Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

gorgeous

my faves so far:

april 56 'somebody else's world'

may 54 'my land of dreams' and 'dreams come true'...

alot to digest and sift through.
needs substantial editing.
cb

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 4:43 AM, wrote:
> I especially like the Solovox rehearsal material,especially "Darn that
> Dream"
>
>
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Fri, 2012-06-08 14:31
Brad at Saturn
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Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

I especially like the Solovox rehearsal material,especially "Darn that Dream"

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Music a Neglected Plane of Wisdom

Tue, 2012-06-12 14:51
James Lindbloom
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Thoughts on The Eternal Myth Revealed Vol. 1

I do enjoy the wealth of hitherto-unheard Ra music on this set, but I could've done without Michael Anderson's dj patter, since he's essentially just reading the text in the booklet most of the time. Subtract that and other extraneous material (Ray Charles' general ruminations on the blues, etc.) and you'd have a shorter, much more listenable set. Given how moderately priced it was for pre-orders, it's hard to carp too much, though. My repeated listens to box sets almost always involve using the "program" button on my cd player anyhow; I just have to edit out more than I usually do, in this case. Looking forward to the next volume.

James
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